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PostSubject: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyMon 13 Feb 2006, 3:47 pm

CQB

1.01 joule limit-full auto

FPS-bb weight
330-.2
295-.25
279-.28
246-.36
255-.43

Outdoor-10ft mercy rule mandatory-must call mercy on someone within 10 feet.

1.49 Joule limit for full auto

FPS-bb weight
400-.2
358-.25
338-.28
298-.36
275-.43

guns shooting over 1.49 joules will be semi auto only with a 40ft OR MORE minimum engagement distance applied. Players over 1.49 that do not shoot responsibly (head shots, shooting within minimum distance) will be given a warning or asked to not use that gun. Situation depending.

max joules 2.28

FPS-bb weight
495-.2
443-.25
419-.28
369-.36
338-.43

These limts are high on most club standards and everything changes if everyone has face masks. Let me know what you think and remember this is a brain storm. http://www.cimmerians.org/FPS_Converter.html?action=fps use this to do your own math.


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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyMon 13 Feb 2006, 8:35 pm

Many clubs have a fps listing but give players permission to use hot guns. It has been a long standing fight on snipers being discriminated against due to the minimal gain by having a higher fps, 10-20 feet more engagement. These players gain permission to use hot guns by demonstrating 99% responsiblity and ability in the gun that they are using. This means that there are NO NOOB snipers!!!

Most clubs that I have seen also have some leway in the fps. The average is 425 fps wih a high and low of 400-450. These fps limits do not include Joules, but usually are judged by fps with a .2, again some players argue with this. Good job Dave for including the Joules.

Personally, I don't think that anything under 3 joules is an issue. Competition paintball guns usually hit with a 2-4 joule impact, ergo, the 330fps limit on paintball guns, anything higher, due to the 4g balls can start causing brain damage Smile .

Paintball players wear MASKS. If we as a club wore PROPER equipment and gear, ie covered arms, faces, and heads, there Gerren could play with a 450fps .43g sniper rifle without any issues. I think that we should really push for people in our club to wear proper equipement, a t-shirt just does not cut it. People should wear full pants, jacket, vest or load bearing system, gloves[b]

For Bubba's CQB game, MASK SHOULD BE MANDITORY. People will still complain getting shot with stock guns up close. People should be aware that BB GUNS HURT, DUH. If everyone wore proper gear that covered up all EXPOSED SKIN, then fps limits would not be an issue.

I for one have no problem letting Gerren use a 450fps with .43g sniper rifle. I will wear full gear when he is playing. Street clothes should be banned or at least doubled up when playing at an Airsoft game. A t-shirt does not offer adequate protection! As seen with Jeff's equipement, he just laughs when the BB's bounch off of his kevlar.

I think players should seriously consider the risks when they play. Teeth can be knocked out from 200 fps guns, irresponcible shoting up close is more dangerious than high fps shooting from afar. For example, last weekend I was shooting from 50-60 feet away with:

A 0.28g BB leaving the barrel at 370 fps will contain approximately 1.78 joules of energy.

This configuration caused pain against the back of someones head. For that I am sorry. Mind you, if we enforced a stricter gear set rule and people wore boonies, scarves, helmets, or other head protection, this would have not been an issue.

As the weight of the BB goes up, there is an expodential curve of fps lost. My gun that shoots ~470 with a .2

A 0.20g BB leaving the barrel at 470 fps will contain approximately 2.05 joules of energy.

But with a .28 I am shooting at 370 and 1.78 joules. This is why I say FPS with a .2 is a poor form of measurement, joules should be our guideline.

Well enough rambling, this post has been re-written twice due to the broswer I am using back at home crashing twice (Firefox is still too buggy).

-Doug-
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyMon 13 Feb 2006, 9:17 pm

the point of the fps rules would be to protect players and make the experiece as positive as possible. Frag hit me in the head with his G&P, I was wearing a face mask and a hat but it still almost made me lose my composure and gave me a goose-ache for a few days. Not a great experience and it was beyond the point of fun. (NOT FRAGs FAULT)

paint-balls can't really be compared to as they react differently when they hit. When they break allot of the energy is lost, a frozen paintball is extremely dangerous although it has the same joules when fired at the same fps as a liquid filled paintball.

3.00 g is the typical weight for a paintball pellet. This weight is for comparison purposes only and is not used on Airsoft. Higher energy but different collisions read Elastic collisions (airsoft) and Inelastic collisions (paintball) topics for further information.

Based on the Firearms Act 1968, the 3 J limit is indicated by Forensic Science Agency for Northern Ireland as the lower limit to inflict a lethal (paragraph 123) /penetrating (paragraph 26) wound. On another document also regarding firearms, "The Eleventh Annual Report of the Firearms Consultative Committee", the penetration levels lies between 2 and 3 J based on a research for US Army and DiMaio's work in "Minimal Velocities Necessary for Perforation of Skin by Air Pellets and Bullets, Journal of Forensic Sciences".
taken from wikapedia search word "airsoft"

2-3 joules in my mind is to high with what we are playing at now. If everyone had face masks and vests (not that hard to do) I would have fewer problems. I read about a club in Hawaii today that does a no FPS limit game where they warn everyone just to wear proper gear.
http://www.epowersportsllc.com/game.html

snipers (guns over 1.49j) need to be more than responsible they need to be perfect.
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyTue 14 Feb 2006, 2:39 am

I agree Dave, high fps, it is not for everyone.

In Hong Kong, you have guns firing 800 fps, people play submission games, "everyone" uses box magazines and hose at the highest fps they can get.

I used to play with real BB guns with copper pellets, those left some nasty bruises and holes. I guess that I personally am willing to take risks. All the other sports I have played involved a level of risk and injury. From skiing I have compressed a disk and crumpled both wrists, from skate boarding I have shattered both bones in a forearm, I have torn tendons and ligiments in court games, I used to do martial arts both armed and unarmed. I personally like the risk of stuff.

Now this does not mean that I should put OTHER people at risk. Now that is something that I should take responsibility for. Just because I feel comfortable getting bruised and broken, does not mean that other people should be forced to do the same. This means that I should follow the guidelines that are placed down by the club. This should go for everyone, no one is exempt, no HOT guns. but... as there are different style of games, so should there be different fps rules for games. I propose:

STOCK <300 fps for CQB ~0.8 joules. Propane and C02 Gas guns hurt, use duster and put them under 300 fps. Guns should not have a spring upgrade to do CQB. You can put in a faster motor, or a higher amp battery for faster response on your semi-auto, but no need to bullet hose or higher fps in CQB. And yeah, wear MASKS. The army surplus has some mesh ones for sale, or go to CT.

Yard/Forest Battles. These are battles that are put people in ranges that get within 10 feet of each other. If people are getting close, then why aren't we doing CQB rules? Guns should be AT MOST 400 fps, I would say 360fps at the loss of my G36 Sad or at MOST 1.2 joules. I would like to see more of the UK rules of 1 joule limit for these games.

Open Field/Bunker battles. These battles provide enough cover and open view to allow sniping and aimed shots. People should not have to go closer than 20 metres in order to shoot someone. These battles would allow guns that shoot up to 2 joules, period... no more.

Milsim/Hardcore. No limit, people gear up proper, really proper. That airsoft minigun or the C02 antimaterial guns are in this style of game. Lets see some SystemA extreme or Star red boxes shooting full auto at 550 fps. This IS legal in Canada. To be classified as a firearm under Canadian law, specifically the Firearms Act, an airgun must fire in excess of 500 feet per second (152.4 metres per second) AND have a muzzle energy in excess of 5.7 joules.

http://www.airsoftcanada.com/showthread.php?t=3931


To summarize, these are the FPS rules that I propose. Yes, they are a little harsher than Daves, but until everyone is geared up properly, then yeah, this is what we should have. CQB everywhere else REQUIRES full facemasks due to playing in paintball arenas, except TTAC3, they are insane, 350fps CQB with goggles. If, and when, everyone is properly geared, and we have enough loner gear, then yeah, lets pump the FPS up, but as long as people are not equiped properly and aren't used to idea of pain, then it is pointless to allow high powered guns on the field, it will only cause more troubles.

My joules proposal, all FPS using 0.2g's but if you use a heavier weight to go under the joules, than that is fine.

CQB: 0.8 joules or less. This is a gun firing at ~292 fps with 0.2g. This covers most stock TM guns and pistols using duster. If you are using non-TM, low power springs are cheap and will extend the life of your gun.

Dynamic Range/Cover: I would like to see 1 joule or less for full auto (330 fps) and 1.2 for semi auto (360 fps). Nothing more, no exceptions, this type of fighting gets too close to CQB engagment to feel comfortable.

Open Range/Cover: 1.5 joules full auto (400 fps), 2 joules semi-auto (460 fps). Nobody should be engaging up close due to nature of battle, good visibility means that people can aim and time their shots. Mercy rules are in full effect.

Milsim/Hardcore: yeah, no limit, just keep it sane at under 4 joules if you can. People MUST wear full gear, I mean hockey armor under your gear if you have to. Full face and head cover, paintball mask with helmet is preferable. Of course, you could do this naked (hardcore) but I would still want the requirement of a full face mask that covers ears.


I realize that most of our games are dynamic range, due to the nature of airsoft guns having sucky range for most people using stock guns. I think that if our club had more upgraded guns, then our games would change in nature and we would see more open games. Unfortunately due to our club still be new, most people do not have the selection of guns to choose form. I, for one, have no problem shelving my spaceguns until more players are on an equal footing. I am sure that most people would agree that upgraded guns give a real advantage and maybe we would see games based more on skill and not who has the better gun.

Of course, these are all suggestions. I don't mind nerfing our games if we allow the capacity to have more harder games too. Keep our public games low joules and our private games higher joules. That will see people who are new getting a taste of the game without being drilled and seasoned players getting drilled and enjoying it.

-Doug-


P.S. come-on people, lets hear some ideas, don't let Dave and I mouth off here by ourselves.
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptySat 18 Feb 2006, 12:41 pm

I agree fps and joule requirements must be dependant on the field and game situation, but we may also want to have a case by case basis depending on who shows up with what protective gear.

Those bb's in the forehead and the glasses convinced me to get a mask after the last game. Any idea how the mesh masks perform? Do the bb's break up and still come through the holes at a certain fps? Will Doug be able to punch holes through my mesh mask with that nail gun he was using? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptySat 18 Feb 2006, 1:05 pm

I've wondered that about my mesh ones too, what will happen if I get a really high joule bb in the meshy? The bbs will break if they are low quality or if it's cold...ok so it's always cold. Did you buy one from the army surplus?
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptySat 18 Feb 2006, 1:15 pm

Just as a thought, I have no idea how expensive the mesh masks are but mabye we should look into buy one as a club and testing it?
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptySat 18 Feb 2006, 2:55 pm

There are a few different kinds. Mine is a single piece that has holes punched in it, while the others are mesh. How would we want to test it? Point blank with a 420fps .2?
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptySat 18 Feb 2006, 5:29 pm

I got one from the army surplus. We can try it out next time, I'll have safety glasses underneath for testing. I'm not doing the 420 fps point blank test though. Doug seems impervious to pain (by all those sports related injuries he's reported) maybe he'll volunteer. Smile
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PostSubject: Takes both limits and responsibility   FPS chat EmptySat 18 Feb 2006, 7:47 pm

One thing that I think is really necessary is that responsibility is key. If a new guy comes out just bought a gun upgraded to the gunnels, we cannot tell if he will be trustworthy to not be dangerous. But when we play CQB, and Doug has his G36 out there, I know he is responsible with it, so the fps don't worry me as much, as I know he won't be dangerous. As an up and coming sniper, the gun that I am purchasing shoots at a high fps (~450fps), but I know that getting hit that hard within a distance of 50-60 feet will hurt, so I have to watch where I am shooting, and even that, I have to pay attention to whether or not to even use my sniper at that time, or to use my sidearm. Also the type of game is key to fps...it's not going to work to have a sniper on a CQB course....that's been my two-cents, till next time keep fit and have fun
P.S. I'm back in town now!!! and my P90 is almost sold!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyTue 21 Feb 2006, 9:11 pm

I agree Smith, we have had a fair number of games with varying situations that have taught us some valuable lessons. I guess the best way to learn is keep trying and adapt it depending on the game. I guess this is a good reason to own more than one gun Smile Again, as GM_Gunner mentioned, if we know the players, then maybe we can bend rules, BUT only if all players are consented. Private games could turn into our extreme milsim stuff and the public games for sane stuff.

Smith, I have no problem volenteering as a target, it would make good sniper practice if I mask and scarf up and let people learn to aim at a moving target. Maybe we can try some sniper games this weekend. One lowcap mag for the whole game, make your shots count! (cough cough 2 highcaps in a game)...

-Doug-
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyTue 21 Feb 2006, 9:50 pm

It was only 1.5 hicaps and we were playing machine gun nest... Smile

A sniper game with one locap sounds pretty cool, I've only got one bottle of bb's left anyway. I might even try a couple games with just my hicapa.

See you Saturday!

Wayne
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyFri 03 Mar 2006, 2:53 pm

updated with .28 wieghts.
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyTue 21 Mar 2006, 11:36 am

While I was in Kamloops I spoke with Shawn (SSP21) re. fps limits. Apparently nearly all the Kelowna players play with hot guns, many over 400 fps. If we plan on competing seriously with those guys it may be necessary for us to do likewise. Personally I am very happy with my stock guns, but down in Kamloops the field I played at was a lot more open than in PG, making a hot gun with longer range much more valuable.
I did just fine with my ICS ~320 fps, but there were a couple times where I could have used a bit more range.
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyWed 22 Mar 2006, 8:49 pm

I would upgrade my tommy to 315 if there was a gun doctor in town that did gear boxes. Airsoft Kelowna will upgrade your gun for cheap but 007 will do a complete job for a bit more cash. Check 007airsoft.com and read through the upgrades section.

Wayne did they all wear full face masks when playing with juiced up guns?
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyWed 22 Mar 2006, 9:33 pm

The guys in Kamloops mostly played with goggles, I'm not sure about the Kelowna guys.
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PostSubject: Re: FPS chat   FPS chat EmptyThu 04 May 2006, 12:46 am

i know this is a late response to the post, but i fugured that since the milsim in kelowna is on this weekend and this is the first time i read this topic i would at least reply. TwSmith is correct, we all run goggles, or glasses with extra side protection and we only have 3 upgraded guns. my Styer Aug is shooting about 410, Overkills mp5 is shooting 380ish and lewis's sl8 is shooting 460 all with .20bbs. all three of us run .25bbs and because lewis's gun shoots over 420fps he is only allowed semi-auto. in kelowna they used to have no fps limt that i was aware of, but now that they have moved to a more cqb oriented feild tjhey have a 420fps limit on aegs and i beleive 450 for semi and boltaction(check their forum to be sure).

i agree with alot of whats said about fps and joule limits, most people who play tend to have jobs and such to go to after a game day and dont need ot get hurt on the feild, or have nasty bleeding welts all over thier face and arms(and who knows where else). we dont have a cqb area in kamloops, so i cant really comment, but i do beleive most of the sites i have seen with cqb feilds have a limit around 320-360 and most at the very least recomend masks.
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