SystemA PTW Group Order Poll

Yeah, I'll probably be here if it's towards the end of January. I should be in Las Vegas for about a week in early January. This time I'm going to shoot a Thompson 1929, FAL and perhaps the M60. UZI would be cool too.

You were here towards the end of January this year, weren't you, Dave?

I think so. I'll pm the dates to you when I get them. CAN'T WAIT!

Argh !! I'm on the edge of selling 2 on my nicest RS just to finance my new hobby (1000m shooting) and the more I read about these PTW the more I want one....maybe I don't really need a Nightforce scope after all...
Damm you Mcgyver !!

Don't try one then Nic, or you'll have to buy one for sure.

=FRAG= wrote:

Argh !! I'm on the edge of selling 2 on my nicest RS just to finance my new hobby (1000m shooting) and the more I read about these PTW the more I want one....maybe I don't really need a Nightforce scope after all...
Damm you Mcgyver !!

So, Daes, did you get your gun in yet? I'm wondering what your impressions of it are?

I am not out of camp until the 12th or so... By then both the gun and the Empire order should be in. Mark was a great guy to deal with, on the ball, makes sense considering the money involved though

I am having a brutal time looking at RS accessories though... Man, this gun and parts were enough of an investment but what is the point if I don't pimp it out... At least RS stuff lasts and if the body does dies, it can be replaced with RS (at least upper legally)...

When I do get back to town, I hopefully will be impressed. Despite the hype, I have also read enough negatives, so I am sure I will not be disappointed by whatever I get. For me, the ability to be very swappable with RS is what attracted me. Though I love my other guns, they were just not reliable enough and I always felt like I had to be extra careful with them in order to prevent breakage. Not that I won't be with the PTW, just I will be able to get into the sim spirit a bit more vigorously.

MacGuyver, I have appreciated the correspondence on both this site and ASC. Though you have taken a lot of flak for being the Canada "voice" of PTW's, you have really brought their image to view, both negatives and positives. When people buy now, they have the information to make an informed decision.

Thanks,
-Doug

I've heard guys give me crap because they listened to me and bought one, then were very unimpressed. Although it's deleted now, some guys called me a moron on ASC because their guns performed nowhere near what a 360 fps M14 did. I called BS on them, but what can you do. Most guys barely understand a regular AEG, now they have to learn all about a new one that's so unlike what their old one is that it's practically magical.

You have to pay attention to little things, read the manual and go on the PTW-users forum to pick up hints and tid-bits from guys who've had them for awhile. Use a quality BB (KSC is NOT PTW friendly), like Metal Tech, observe proper maintenance and don't submerge it in water (especially salt water). Other than that, you should have no problems and be happy with your investment.

I've been around this game for a few years, and I just call things like I see them.

Yeah, I saw much of that one sided BS argument, the fellows, both team members seemed a bit dense. It is amazing what a well tuned and sealed hop-up can do.

Having built guns from scratch, spending amounts that would have gotten me a PTW, and doing it over the course of years, watching one part after another become out-dated, I am use to disappointment and frustration of conflicting parts, shoddy companies, and not being able to achieve the level of perfection that I was looking for.

Not that a PTW will come close to what I am looking for but it does have features and fine tuning that I demand. Yes, I can mech-hack everything to come close, but in the end, the PTW just has features that work WELL together. Also, I need something that can FPS swap quickly and WORK at those FPS well, not requiring hours of mechbox and seal tuning to get it to work again at that FPS.

So yeah, even if I am disappointed, I know that there are plenty of tricks and tips to tune up a gun and the PTW provides an excellent platform to do so. There is a reason why I ordered an extra hopup and a tons of extra parts, I do intend to fine tune.

Recommended sites for PTW and non-PTW users.
http://forums.airsoftmechanics.com
http://www.systema-ptw.com/Forum/


-Doug

So what parts did you order from Empire?

Looks like Wayne wants one now, too!!

2 x Systema PTW Magazine Followers
1 x Systema PTW Hop Adjuster Set with Cushions
2 x Systema PTW Cylinder Rebuild Kit
1 x Systema PTW Hop Up Chamber Kit
2 x Systems Cylinder Grease

Not a ton of stuff, just some emergency supplies. I was tempted to grab another electronics board but that will be at a later date. Oh, that and I grabbed the standard M110 cylinder, mags, etc. I am going to see how the PTW performs before I put too much more in and see what I like and what I want to work on.

You know, I fail to see why people are gripping about the PTW talk on ASC. Look at all the great deals on used guns that will come up if lots of people move over to the PTW's. Not everyone is wanting a PTW (well until some non-armalite models come out). It is a shame there are hassles with the age verifying right now, I think that a slew of guns are going to glut the used market. At least Systema was smart enough to put out upgrade kits to give their guns a long-term life.

So yeah, everyone wins here. People sell off their old monster guns at great prices, and then buy new guns to make into monsters. Everyone will be playing upgraded, happy, and bring the game to a whole new level.

-Doug

People gripe at the new arms race. A $450 Marui is no longer sufficient, right? When guys have to face a $4000 gun (gun and accessories), they feel inadequate and frightened. Kind of like bringing a knife to gun fight. Now, to be competitive, they feel they need to get a PTW, but simply can't. I see that some may get discouraged and not play simply because they're outgunned.

I know, it happened here in GP (at least that's what I think).

You should have enough cylinder grease to last you a lifetime. Let me know what parts exaclty are in the rebuild kits, specifically whether you get the polyurethane nozzle o-ring.

Yeah, I keep hearing about that o-ring. I think I have a feeling that I will be needing just those and not so much the kits.

Rebuild comes with:
CU-003 = Small o-ring for cylinder head
CU-006 = Cylinder head bumper
CU-008 = Piston head bumper
CU-009 = Small o-ring for piston
CU-010 = Main o-ring for piston
(that was a pain, http://www.systema-ptw.com/Files/Technical_Illustrations.pdf)


As for the arms race, I find that nobody really gets out of joint in PG over upgraded guns. Having a PTW will not make me bullet proof or Rambo. Most likely, with the M110, I will be at a lower FPS then many guns. Superior tactics and shear numbers usually end the fire-power difference too. Having a great gun will not hide my in-adequate skills or lack of ability (hypothetically, ha ha ha). Though when the club first started, having an upgraded gun had a huge advantage, people did figure out ways around it and caught up. I assume the same will happen again. Though nobody likes to loose, I am more worried about people cheating on hits then complaining that someone has an upgraded gun. Fair play always wins in the end.

(mind you, I would love to see what a MAX upgrade game looks like one day, everyone shooting as hard as possible, finally, people learning to use hardcover for a change...)

-Doug

Oh for &^@#@ sake, though I have the gun, PayPal took over 2 WEEKS to clear, it hasn't even shipped yet, let alone go through customs.... I doubt that my parts will be in time. LAST time I ever use PayPal....

-Doug

I hate PayPal. I stopped using it last year, but had to re-activate it to buy some stuff from Empire this year.

It does suck!!

Oh well, bought some basics from A&A, in-country but killer on the accessory prices, but hey, you pay for convenience...

But seriously, two weeks to clear... NEVER AGAIN.... I really need to get a credit card again...

-Doug

Just a final bump before I get back home and bring the PTW to the Sim game (and thus move this thread to the pit). Remember if you got the spare change, http://www.aasurplus.ca/airsoft/ is the place to go, they still have quite a few available.

-Doug

Well, tested everything out. Nearly trashed the gun because the new charger does not charge 12v batteries, nearly killed it already, urghhhh.

Anyways, for those who are curious, I will have both the TM M16A2 and the Systema M16A3 MAX at the sim. Feel and handle the difference between the two and formulate your own opinion.

I will also do up a photo and written comparison, gripes, etc. There are a few non-rs similarities that really urk me already...

-Doug

So, what are your impressions? What is there that you've found that offers differences to RS?

I can tell you that my Bushmaster AR handguards fit on a PTW, and with as much fighting as they do on the Bushmaster. I have real optics that fit on both (I took the scope I was using on the M16A3 and zero'd it on the Bushmaster).

The barrel is obviously different (10mm-ish bore vs. 5.5mm-ish). Mags are the same (I can lock the real one into the PTW, but not vice-versa). I have heard guys have a rail out of spec, but I haven't personally seen it.

The guns weigh about the same, but the PTW is balanced a bit more to the rear, due to a crane stock + battery vs, the 6-position on the real one.

Having both real and PTW, I can tell you that even the real one leaves a few things to be desired, but thankfully all can be fixed by spending big $$$ on things like Magpul grips and stocks, SIRs and optics, locking receiver pins, enhanced trigger guards as well as internal "fixes" for inherent issues with the design (on the real gun I mean).

Next time you pass through GP, come on over. I'll show you what a $3000 Bushmaster is like vs. a $3000 PTW (with accessories).

For sure MacGuyver. We all need to do some more road trips and get some exposure to how other clubs play and also show that we are a presence in the community.

My first and biggest gripe is the non-RS buffer tube. Seriously, what the hell is up with the stock on the M16A3, so far from RS it is no even funny (plastic strike plate, arghhH!)... Having taken apart a bunch of the gun to check it out, I see that the PTW buffer plays into the lock mechanism to keep things tight, looks like I will have to jerry-rig something for the Magpul PRS...

The build quality is amazing on the PTW, having spent all evening fighting with a TM gun to get it back to a stock M16A2 makes me really hate that pot metal... Those locking receiver pins are great and access to open is super fast.

Also having troubles with the bolt catch working properly. Don't want to fool around with it but it is not working very well. Looks like Mark had a little fun with it first

Still waiting for the Yankee order, hopefully it gets in tomorrow or I will be playing with the G36. Only have one mag in, one 12v, M110 and M150, need the rest to make it any good for the Sim.

Thanks for all the help and hints Brad. It really made things easier to understand. Like I stated earlier, I have been really disappointed with after-market Airsoft and wanted a fresh start, the PTW looks very very promising.

Mind you, just a gun and basic set-up is costing over 3k now. I really doubt that most people are going to jump on the bandwagon too fast... (2.3k cheapest non-kit PTW from A&A, batteries, box of mags, and M110, M130 cylinders, another 1k, add on the RS accessories and yeah... what a money trap...)

-Doug

If you look at the pragmatic view to construction, a real-sized buffer tube would be impossible in an M16. You need the space for the switch board, as well as room for a 12v battery. It would make for mounting a real stock difficult, as well as leaving no room for a big battery (which you'll like if you use the M150 in colder weather).

Drive out the pin that holds the bolt catch in place. Remove it and stretch the spring (if you have fail-to-fire issues). It's a delicate balance between the bolt catch and the mag follower. Too much tension on the bolt catch spring leads to dry fire and too little leads to fail-to-fire situations. As a matter of procedure, get used to watching th bolt catch and giving it a tap prior to firing. With a real AR, as well as the PTW, you might actually be out of rounds when you go to pull the trigger. It makes the game that much more interesting.

Just wait until you adjust the hop-up and get to field the gun. Avoid long triggr pulls (it heats up the FETS and motor significantly with the bigger cylinders). When you see the potential of the gun, you'll understand my love for them.

Yeah, I can see the reason for the short tube for battery space but a plastic strike plate? Bah, that is just cheaping out... Even my TM comes with a metal plate. Don't matter, will be all replaced anyways. At least the furniture is up to par and the metal, is for the most part, steel, so yeah, gun quality is through the roof.

Yeah, I am get a dry fire issue. I will carefully try the spring stretch. So much conflicting info on systema-ptw europe forum, hard to tell who is BS'ing (just making stuff up, don't even own a PTW) and who actually has done half of what they say.

Also, thanks for the trigger call there. I notice that the M150 is a real juice hog. Though the M150 is not game friendly, it really does loan itself for some excellent practice drills. Range is incredible.

Given enough time and use, I will be completely in love with the PTW's. Right now, I need to abuse it a bit and see what need to be tinkered with. For a "stock" gun, it really is in a different categories from AEG's, even the sound is horrifying.

-Doug

I just learn to live with the bolt catch. It works, most of the time, but I learn to keep an eye and a finger on it. Some guys have installed a shim to decrease the range of motion for that little spring. I think that your issue is due to the strength of that spring being a bit too much. But it could settle itself in after a few times working it, so give it a while and run a few mags through and see where you are at.

I noticed that alot of folks post up alot of stuff, mostly in the last month or so. So much so, that older forum members have posted a "STFU if you're new" thread.

I'm no expert, as I haven't had to build dozens of these things, but I have torn down the gearbox and cylinders and electronics at least once each.

Wayne has got to play with mine a bit, but the other guys might be a little shocked at it's report. It's so distinctive, and mean!!

I have been reading the entire topic and been caught with the disease with PTW. I might as well buy M4A1 MAX since I'll be purchasing a real steel STAGARMS or Bushmaster, and accessories like rail systems and pistol grips and etc... Will definitely make life on cash a tad easier for me.

Spending tons of money on buying, selling, trading and upgrading on TM,CA and TOP was way over PTW cost in long terms.

Would someone please knock some sense to Geoff to get one too! lol

there is no way that I am going to try and convince anyone else local to get one of these...they put my JG's in the grave way to quickly.

Hortons Heros wrote:

there is no way that I am going to try and convince anyone else local to get one of these...they put my JG's in the grave way to quickly.

I don't think PTW is good start for anyone who wants to try out airsoft. Its always great to know and have an AEG(s) at first. PTW isn't like replacement for everyone not until you love M16 series and summarizing the total cost you spend.