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 Just a thought on wire mesh goggles

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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 03 Dec 2006, 2:44 pm

just a couple pf thpughts on some of your threds i've been reading. We have tryed the mesh goggles and found that they have failed badly. we found that all it takes is one bad bb to penitrate. we found that they would split an shatter. I would highly recomend to not use them. We also use the kill flags up here and they work great. yell hit and put flag on your head or raised. we found that over the sound of battle that it can be hard to hear hit calls so the flag is a dead giveaway.We use portions of a high vis vest. they are light and small. and cheap.
The other thing we do differently is we do call gun hits. a gun hit is just that a wounded gun. some of us have sidearms that never seem to get used so if your gun gets hit that gun is inactive. now with the group of us we also will share guns if needed. now that is a personal choice for some do not want to hand over there baby. Gun hits seem to happen alot so it makes the game interesting when half your crew is down to pistols.

just some thoughts to send your way.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 03 Dec 2006, 4:16 pm

The mesh goggles we tried took a .25 going over 350fps at 2 feet so we were happy. There is a chance that BBs can shatter and the bits go through but all the tests we have done make us feal they are safe enough.

I find it more dangerous to have guys with fogged up goggles taking them off during games, tripping, firing blindly (accidental face shots) becuase they are fogged up.

I like the ideas of gun hits taking out a weapon. Maybe something we'll change in our rules.

We used to do allot more gun sharing when the club was smaller and everyone knew everyone. It still happens in games every now and then when someones main goes down and they don't have a back up.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 03 Dec 2006, 7:24 pm

iF YOU PAY FOR SOME DECENT GOGGLES THEY DON'T FOG. WE ARE ALL RUNNING BOLLE 800'S OR CLASSIC ARMY GOGGLS AND NEVER HAD A FOG ISSUE. sorry cap lock on not yellin at ya all. I guess if you feel safe with the mesh all the power to you. I was wondering if you guys all sign liability weivers when you play ? also if you need parental consent for those who are under 19 ?
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 03 Dec 2006, 9:13 pm

We play in the crap weather so fogging seems to happen to everyone. I havn't seen the T-800's fog but I would have to ask Daes or tw_smith if they have had any issues. Some of the nicer ESS stuff has fogged, it just seems like everything fogs at some point beside the t-800s.

Anytime we play at paintball fields we get everyone to sign waivers that cover the field. We have a NIA waiver but we don't use it to often because we know everyone that comes has spent a fortune on the gun they own or they are there with a friend that we trust. We do allow under 18 players but they have to be at least 16, wear a full face mask and I usually talk to the parents. At the paintball fields the under 18s have to have a parent sign.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyMon 04 Dec 2006, 10:00 pm

I have Bolle T-800's and they fog. I have used painball goggles and they have fogged. I have used grinder goggles and they fog. I have used shop glasses and they fog.

The only nice thing about the bolles is that they de-fog when you move quickly, but the rest of the time, fog...

Mind you, I HATE the sunglasses effect of wearing mesh goggles. For me, vision is everything, and Dave is right, fogging is just as dangerous as bad eyewear.

Solution? I don't have one... I really wish that no-fog, clear, glasses existed.

Maybe I can purchuse some cyber eyes that are BB proof or something...

-Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyTue 05 Dec 2006, 10:13 pm

I don't think there is any eye protection that will guarantee 100% that you are not going to get hurt.

My Bolle's usually only fog up when I wear my boonie or when I'm not moving around much. Sweat droplets are a problem in the summertime as well. My wire mesh airsoft mask works really well and has been tested with a KJW Ruger carbine and 0.2's point blank >400fps. There's a chance that bb's could break and penetrate but I believe the impact would take most of the velocity so hopefully the potential for eye injury would be greatly reduced. The Bolle's have a small gap around the lens so you could potentially get a bb between the lens and the rubber so they could potentially be just as hazardous as standard safety glasses. Most sealed goggles are very bad for fogging up. If you check out the injuries thread on Airsoft Canada you hear some horror stories, but some of the worst injuries seem to be inflicted when people trip/fall. This seems to suggest that reduced vision could contribute to injuries nearly as much as improper eye protection. Broken/chipped teeth are pretty common as well so a mouth guard is probably a good idea if we're just using goggles.

There will always be a potential hazard when you fire plastic projectiles at other people. All we can do is try to minimize the chances of a serious injury occurring by wearing proper eye protection. Unfortunately because of different face shapes, heavy breathers, different styles of play, etc... eye protection that works well for one person may not work for another.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyTue 05 Dec 2006, 10:23 pm

I wrote a paper last week on almost the same topic... sad I know... but we all basically need to come to the realization that gear, goggles or whatever only reduce the risk. There is no product out there that can make things 100% risk free.

As a club I think we're heading in a great direction with making sealed goggles mandatory for playing...

Smith I completely agree with the sweat problem when its warm. I have many more problems with sweat than fog.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyTue 05 Dec 2006, 11:01 pm

Sorry, kind of off topic.

Some time if you have a chance check out the stats for eye injuries in hockey. The introduction of visors and cages has dramatically reduced the frequency and severity of eye injuries in the last 20 years or so but many recreational players (myself included) still don't use them. I've tried a cage, a full face shield and a half face shield but every time I noticed such a difference in my vision and level of play that I took them off. I've had my nose broken three times, twice by pucks and once with a stick. On the last occasion I was wearing the half shield. At the time, I never even considered the possibility that I could have been hit in the eye and gone blind. Needless to say, I've picked up a new shield and I'm going to give it another try. Hopefully this one won't fog up so bad that I take it off after one or two games.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyWed 06 Dec 2006, 3:56 am

Here at Mission Op-For we have had a "Must seal to the face" clause in our eye safety rules since the beginning. I tend to be paranoid about the eyes and safety in general (still can't get everyone to wearl kneepads Evil or Very Mad ) and I would always recomend paintball/ballistic eye protection over mesh mask any day.

That being said, I have also come to the realization that it is no safer to be so fogged up that you can't see properly. If you're fogged up that's when the mask comes off for a quick wipe, and that's when you see accidents! I wear JT 260 Spectras and they work fine for me but I do know of a couple of guys that have even fogged those up ... I would suggest everyone try a proper solid lense goggle first but if you still can't see ... then use what works.

We tested the wire goggles as well and I was impressed with their performance. We also only bring in the higher quality bb's so the chance of a brittle bb shattering should be a rarity. Excell, Airsoft Elite and Matrix bb's all will crush/smoosh when squeezed with vice grips rather than shatter!

My biggerst fear about the Mesh goggle is that they might not be properly stored. If you simply throw your mesh goggles into your gear bag after the game and it bumps/grinds/squishes around the back of a vehicle for the days or weeks in between games I fear that the constant bending of the mesh lense will effectively de-bond the wire weave and allow a bb to press it's way through the strands of wire. If I had one of these masks I would get a solid case for them such as a Rubbermade bowl or some kind of metal tin for more secure storage.

Just my 2 cents ... well looks to be a bit more than that I guess but another opinion always helps.

Regards,
Matt.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyWed 06 Dec 2006, 6:06 am

Hmm, excellent point Matt about stress wear on the metal mesh. Between using bad BB's and weaken mesh, the effects could be quite damaging (wire and plastic in eye).

Yeah, I agree Wayne, I REALLY hate having my vision impaired in sports. Being a sweaty guy, anything covering my eyes just accumulates moisture. Be it skiing or squash, the eye wear always leaves me at a disadvantage. Mind you, loosing an eye is a death sentence. According to BC Work Safe, when you loose one eye, you have a 40% or higher chance of loosing the other...

Also, this thread has been split into a new thread.

-Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyWed 06 Dec 2006, 10:33 am

Since we got into a full topic here, Has anybody here made there own fanned goggles. I have seen multiple differnt ones on the Forney forms down in Texas but have not seen any here. I am glad to see that we all have a good deal of respect for our vision and I hope we can find a solution that would solve this.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyWed 06 Dec 2006, 12:03 pm

I've seen one, it was just a computer fan attached to the top of his goggles, connected to a 9v battery. Seemed to deal with the fog problem... I'm going to try it just gotta find a fan that's not too bulky
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyWed 06 Dec 2006, 12:42 pm

The ones I saw had a mch smaller fan. they called it a pencil fan. it's about the size of a penny. If anyone can find these I'll try to mass produce some goggles. I can pick up some classic army goggles for about 40 dollars so they would't be too expencive.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyWed 06 Dec 2006, 2:09 pm

princess auto (man store) sells small fans. I think there are some around the size of a quarter. They would be fairly cheap and my sister works there so we can get 1/2 off or something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyWed 06 Dec 2006, 2:10 pm

Horton you should pick me up a few...
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyWed 06 Dec 2006, 2:22 pm

I'll pop in tonight if I remember and get one to see how they look. I can't imagine they would be more than a few bucks.

Any chance to hang out with the sister inlaw is always good too.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptyThu 07 Dec 2006, 11:34 am

About 15 years ago my half-wookie friend built a fan for his goggles. It worked very well except for the annoying hum of the fan. His solution was to mount the switch so he could easily turn on/off without diverting his attention. But he sweated so much that the fan was always on anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySat 16 Dec 2006, 10:17 pm

I have 2 fans
12v small
5v medium from princess auto.
4 AAA battery holder (6V outout)
switch

I need to do some work but the fan is realy quiet and seems to be working good. I'll get some pics up but to get this off the ground it should take around 13-18 bucks.
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PostSubject: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySat 20 Jan 2007, 10:41 pm

Well procrastonation calls again... I was looking around at a friends Michigan based website and stumbled upon a link to a wire mesh goggle review.

http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/index.php?showtopic=59480&pid=17223875&st=0&#entry17223875

So after reading this review I pose this question. We have all seen the results now (if you have no idea what I'm talking about click the link and read the stinkin' review) and maybe someone needs to prove, me and this guy wrong and conduct a test themselves but until then, I ask... should wire mesh goggles be allowed? If the results are true then are these any safer than safety glasses or anything else that doesn't 'seal' your face.. what do you guys think about this?

Personally I don't care, if guys want to wear them then wear them... this seems to come back to the discution that led us to the 'sealed' goggle rule, but for the record, I don't want to see one of our younger guys go home with a scratch eye or something like that because we let them use a mesh goggle instead of a true 'sealed' goggle...

*I put 'sealed' in quotation marks because I don't think wire mesh goggles classify as a 'sealed' unit. I would classify a 'sealed' unit as something which if dust or dirt were to be kicked you would not get it in your eyes very easily... hence paintball goggles=good idea... crappy deal with fog though (i understand that my own definition has holes, as goggles like the bolle T-800 don't qualify, but I think that head on 'holes' have much more of potential for eye injuries than the side)
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 21 Jan 2007, 3:02 am

Like I've said before I'm not a fan of the mesh gogles, but before this there has been no proofe so I've just said I'll never use them and have recomended that others don't use them as well. Having seen that thread I think we should bann them from all club games. Admit it guys the only test we've ever done was one shot at one from a gun that was shooting a little hot. At no point could we say nothing went through just that it didn't bust a hole through the mesh. I'm rather a big safety freak when it comes to eye protection, this is partly do to having a piece of metal removed from my eye. I've also had my eye scratched when I was a kid. Trust me you don't want to experince eather of these things. Having metal removed is bad enough, but they can use a magnet to help look for little fragments, they can't do that with plastic and it's my understanding that having something that's not atrackted to a magnet, removed from your eye is a far worse experince.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 21 Jan 2007, 3:47 am

He shot the mask over 50 times from 6 inches away. I would love to test a paintball mask like that and not expect damage.

I think it is more dangerous for guys to take off their goggles during a game because of fogging (even for a quick wipe) or to not be able to see and go crashing through the bush. There is also the ability to shoot well with a fogged goggle, sometimes you may as well be blind firing which is uber dangerous.

I would be up for not using .12 BBs on the field or not allowing them in CQB but I and Gerren have taken lots of shots at closer distances, even with the .25s flying colour BBs (cheapest we use) and have had no fragment.

Gryph we have tested these goggles a few times and all with positive results. 450fps is not a mildly hot gun, it's quite strong. I would be willing to put up a "WEAR AT OWN RISK" but to ban them I don't find enough reason with that article and our assumptions.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 21 Jan 2007, 4:09 am

I still believe that if the impact breaks the bb, then most of the energy has been dissipated. The fact that a plastic bag was sufficient to catch the pieces of broken bb would be a strong indication that most of the energy was gone. Whose gun can't shoot through a plastic bag? I'm not saying that the broken pieces couldn't cause eye damage, I'm just saying that the likelihood of "shooting your eye out" is greatly reduced and that's really all you can ask of any eye protection. Bolle's have been known to break and safety glasses have been known to shatter. At least with a mesh mask you can tell the condition of the mesh as every hit leaves an impression. With goggles there is often no indication that the acrylic could fail.

I have to agree with Bill, metal in the eye is highly unpleasant. I had my eyeball scraped with a magnet a couple times when I worked in a steel fab. shop. I used to use a face shield and safety glasses when I used an angle grinder, but somehow the occasional piece of steel could always find a path to my eyeball. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 21 Jan 2007, 1:31 pm

I agree that mesh shouldn't be banned, and I don't think I posted this because of the risk of losing an eye, but to rather raise awareness of the greater possibility of catching a fragment of a bb... I definetly think that anything mesh has to be 18+. I know that underagers have to have a paintball mask but making it official that all underagers HAVE to have a paintball mask, not a mesh mask...
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 21 Jan 2007, 5:14 pm

This fragmenting is what we found when we tested our mesh. I have held the mask and out of about every five you can feel the frag hit your hand. It dosn't have to hit hard to do purmenent damege to your eyes. If not permant at least a huge irrentant which would cause you to pull your mask off in a hurry rgardeless of in game or not. This is way more of a risk than fogging and tripping.If you fog and have to remove goggles yell out and I'm sure people will stop same as if they came of for unknown reasons. If you get crap in your eyes you won't be thinking of anything but the pain. These are my thoughts on this matter. Our team up here will not allow mesh goggles at all. I will not play against someone wearing them. Yes it is there eyes but it is my concience saying I hurt them or worse and I don't want to hurt anyone regardless if they say it is alright.
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PostSubject: Re: Just a thought on wire mesh goggles   Just a thought on wire mesh goggles EmptySun 21 Jan 2007, 9:00 pm

I have to say I'm with ZEUS on this one... Almost all tactical goggles are rated to withstand a direct hit from a .22 LR. That's a 26 gram lead projectile going over 1000 fps. Mesh goggle have no certification that I'm aware of.
To put it bluntly, I think anything that isn't sealed or ANSI/paintball rated should be banned outright.
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