Game Style/Type

Horton I hope that Doug straightened out my last post for you...

For gear wise, as long as the gear isn't something like a 6 color chest rig with Cadpat then I think your okay. With the gun rules, that were an example of course, leaves me out as well (M14) but Horton hit it on right on the nose saying that it keeps the AK out of the Cadpat team.

Here's my take on milsim rules:

NIA-MILSIM AMMUNITION RULES
-----------------------------
Ammunition rules for this event are meant to encourage equal footing for all participants. To do this, each type of magazine (real, low, mid, high) have a value attached to them. A limit is set for the event, and you are to determine how many magazines you can carry and of what type before you hit the limit.

Low Cap Mags (20-80)have a value of '1'
Mid Cap Mags (90-150) have a value of '2'
High Cap Mags (150-400) have a value of '15'
Super High Cap (400-700) have a value of '20'
Box Mags (1000)-Must be on a support weapon value of '20'

This means you may carry 10 standards. Alternatively. You may carry one high cap, and 1 mid cap mag. You all know basic math so you may figure out how this works for you. Light machine guns may carry as many box mags as they wish. LMG's that use hi-caps are limited to one, but may have as many low caps as they wish. The reason for only one hi is so that they cannot just give out hi-caps to other players.

NIA-GEAR AND GUN RULES
--------------------------------
-Gear and guns are mission specific. They will change depending on the milsim and the scenario.
-Weapons must match the gear type (No AK's with Cadpat)*
*Note: Some exceptions may apply, for example, an upgraded tactical AK could be used. Please PM Hortons_heros if you have any concerns)

---EXAMPLES OF GUNS AND GEAR---
-Tiger Stripe-Armalite, MP5, LMG
-Team Terror UZI, AK, LMG (AK varient LMG's)
-Flectarn G36, AUG, LMG
-ACU Armalite, M14, M249
------------------------------------------

-BDU's must match, or be have the same color bases (BDU=Tops, Bottoms and some sort of issue type headdress. Boots are a must, but can just be boots)
-Gear like LBV, Ciras, SAAV, Chest rigs, Weesatch, Drop-leg hosters...etc can be any color.
-These rules are here because teams will be broken up by specific gear requirements (example Digital, street clothes, miss matched, green based, desert based, where's Waldo shirts and glasses)

For the guns and gear not listed please PM Hortons_heros to verify that they may be used.

IDEAS
-------------------------------------------

-Skirmish Games
Basiclly run and gun styles of games. Not much structure, run by anyone who shows up.

GAME LEADER-whoever attends
GAME PLAY-Spur of the moment short games
GAME LENGTH-none
GEAR-none is required
AMMO LIMITS-none
TEAMS-Pending on numbers and what is decided on the moment
OTHER INFO-none

Training Games.
Exactly as they sound, be prepared to learn and to spend the day working on specific skills that relate to the sport of Airsoft. *May soon become a requirement to attend Milsims. If you are unable to attend then a course or a run through by a recognized club president will do.
GAME LEADER-Recognized trainer
GAME LEADER-Specific games to work on specific skills and group tactics
GAME LENGTH-Various
GEAR-Pending on trainer
AMMO LIMITS-Mission Specific
TEAMS-TBA
OTHER INFO-none

Operations
Much more structure. More planned movements, team objectives are given and required to perform certain tasks. If your coming to shoot lots then this isn't the game for you.

GAME LEADER-SPECIFIC PERSON-example Daes and Chinese
GAME PLAY-1 or 2 slow paced games that have specific objectives
GAME LENGTH-Mission Specific
GEAR-Mission Specific (will be included in briefing)
AMMO LIMITS-Mission Specific (will be included in briefing)
TEAMS-Mission Specific (will be included in briefing)
OTHER INFO-None

Event
Largest Milsim, be ready for one long game. Due to the amount of people and the amount of organizing that takes place many of the rules are mission specific. Tactical movements, working as a team and performing large and various objectives. SIGN UP THREAD IS A MUST!

GAME LEADER-Specific Person for each team
GAME PLAY-1 slower paced game
GAME LENGTH-Mission Specific
GEAR-Mission Specific (will be included in briefing)
AMMO LIMITS-Mission Specific (will be included in briefing)
TEAMS-Mission Specific (will be included in briefing)
OTHER INFO-None

did you just bold the changes?

EDIT
I have attempted to use this system for the night game briefing...

I still think that the proper rules are more balanced for mags... Now I can field midcap 1200 rnds to a highcaps 400, and lows can field 1360 rnds to a highcap. Lets just leave them the way they were. People still use realcap, even if nobody in PG does anymore. Now the rules for mags are completely unbalanced...

Real Cap Mags (10-30) have a value of '1'
Low Cap Mags (30-80)have a value of '2'
Mid Cap Mags (90-150) have a value of '5'
High Cap Mags (150-400) have a value of '15'
Super High Cap (400-700) have a value of '20'
Box Mags (1000)-Must be on a support weapon value of '20'

If not, then correct the entire list...

Real Cap Mags (10-30) have a value of '0.5'
Low Cap Mags (30-80)have a value of '1'
Mid Cap Mags (90-150) have a value of '2'
High Cap Mags (150-400) have a value of '7'
Super High Cap (400-700) have a value of '10'
Box Mags (1000)-Must be on a support weapon value of '10'

yeah... though I dislike hi-caps, letting everyone else have 3x the ammo is not fair. 1360 to 400, yeah...

No I had just made things a bit more clear, well atleast to me. I bolded the '2' as I felt that it would be over looked...

Yeah, I caught it. I just really think that the over penalization of hi-caps is just maybe too extreme. A 400 round hi-cap is good, but I rather have 1360 rnds of low cap instead anyday or 1200 rnd of mid-cap.

By changing the costs (don't forget those are rules that have been play tested extensively out east), it really makes it look like we do not want any hi-caps period. After I got lambasted for saying we should get rid of hi-caps all together, I figured that the eastern rules are straight forward and well balanced for game play.

The original rules, for a 20 point MilSim will give, using armilite mags:

realcaps-560 rnds (28 rnds per mag x20)
lowcaps-680 rnds (68 rnds per mag x10)
midcaps-480 rnds (120 rnds per mag x4)
hicaps-400 rnds

decently balanced numbers (heck, reals should be even cheaper).

If we change the numbers (1 for low&real, 2 for mid), a 20 point Milsim (has to be at least 15 to allow highcaps right?) will be horribly unbalanced:

realcaps-560 rnds
lowcaps-1360 rnds
midcaps-1200 rnds
hicaps-400 rnds

It is completely unbalanced now and unfair. Either ban high-caps or keep them around in a slightly balanced fashion. Same with real-caps, we may not like them but there are whole teams that only play with them...

Solution to all of this is say ammo limits, who cares about the mags, just you get 600 rnds to play with. Hi-caps will pwn, everyone else will suffer.

The other rules said, only on hi-cap allowed, 600 rnds... Fair, but still not really, one AK high.

What if you want to scale the game? A point system adapts for that.

I really think that they are bang on out east in these rules. They have been very sucessful in MilSim and they have appeared to come across as balanced (still think reals should get more).

If we want to penalize hi-caps greatly, I am fine with that, I have stated that I don't like them before, but I think Dave was fairly clear in that we can't alienate our player base completely. Having un-balanced rules for MilSim will really hurt some peoples enjoyment of the game.

Me, I will stay with my collection of mid-caps and low's. I got rid of all my real's and someone stole my hi, so all I got left is a box-mag to off balance. But as a club, as we have seen with implimenting gear rules and ammo rules, we have to be careful to remain balanced and not alienate other groups.

-Doug

Hey hey hey, I found some woodland being used still by the US.

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet_print.asp?fsID=4486&page=1

Best part is that they are the "extreme" medics. So who is up for Woodland Medics


-awh, they are using desert 3 color
-must be the only clean gear, these are infantry coming back in Woodland... weird...

Just a few I found. (All recent pics.)

hey you even found an AUG shot so I can wear it....that was very nice of you. I remember seeing allot of woodland in a frech forgien leigon show I watched one time.

Okay, I think we get the picture (no pun intended)...

Thanks Guys... Go Woodland!

now to find some Dutch stuff for mike

I'm all Woodland now there Horton... [thread jack] not quite sure what BDU is next, I was thinking of 6 color or a desert theme since I am out on the prairies, but who knows... any suggestions?

Wow, that was just about every gun under the sun with woodland... Mind you, wasn't most of that training excerises where they use old gear? Heh heh... I still like woodland. Ends up that Felix Tactical or whatever is a complete scam... boooo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Army

The dutch weapon list (from the unreliable Wiki):

Glock 17 9 mm pistol
SIG Sauer P226 9 mm pistol
M16 C7A1 5.56 mm assault rifle
M4 C8/C8A1 5.56 mm carbine
M249 Minimi 5.56 mm light machine gun
M240 Mag 7.62 mm machine gun
M2HB 12.7mm (.50cal) heavy machine gun
Heckler & Koch GMG 40 mm automatic grenade launcher
AG36 40mm grenade launcher
SSG 69 sniper rifle
AWM sniper rifle in .338 Lapua
SR93 sniper rifle in 300 Winchester Magnum (7.62 mm) or .338 Lapua Magnum (8.6 mm) used solely by the BBE
M82A1 .50 sniper rifle (please get one Mike)
MP5 submachine gun
P90 submachine gun
Mossberg M590A1 Special Purpose shotgun
L16A2 81 mm mortar
RT-120 (Habé Rayé) 120 mm mortar
M47 Dragon anti-tank weapon (short range) (being replaced)
AT4 anti-tank weapon (very short range) (being replaced)
Panzerfaust 3 anti-tank weapon (short range) (ordered)
M220 BGM-71 TOW (Tube-launched, Optically tracked, Wire-guided missile system) heavy anti-tank missile (being replaced)
Gill anti-tank missile (medium range)

awhh, dammit, missed Beach's new post... Still, those Dutch have got it on!

-Doug

Doug are you still online? Let's figure out this points system for mags really quick

Yeah, I am here. I don't think that much needs to be done on the points system, you already had it pretty balanced.

Real Cap Mags (10-30) have a value of '1'
Low Cap Mags (30-80)have a value of '2'
Mid Cap Mags (90-150) have a value of '5'
High Cap Mags (150-400) have a value of '15'
Super High Cap (400-700) have a value of '20'
Box Mags (1000)-Must be on a support weapon value of '20'


The original rules, for a 20 point MilSim will give, using armilite mags:

realcaps-560 rnds (28 rnds per mag x20)
lowcaps-680 rnds (68 rnds per mag x10)
midcaps-480 rnds (120 rnds per mag x4)
hicaps-400 rnds

decently balanced numbers (heck, reals should be even cheaper).

If we change the numbers (1 for low&real, 2 for mid), a 20 point Milsim (has to be at least 15 to allow highcaps right?) will be horribly unbalanced:

realcaps-560 rnds
lowcaps-1360 rnds
midcaps-1200 rnds
hicaps-400 rnds


Your call Dave, I don't use hi-caps so I have nothing to loose but it does alienate people who are using hi's. I say stick with the proper system but again, that is your call here (I feel stupid being up North here dictating rules when I am not even in PG).

-Doug

OK...highs really do take away from proper game play so I think we'll keep the existing
Real Cap Mags (10-30) have a value of '1'
Low Cap Mags (30-80)have a value of '2'
Mid Cap Mags (90-150) have a value of '5'
High Cap Mags (150-400) have a value of '15'
Super High Cap (400-700) have a value of '20'
Box Mags (1000)-Must be on a support weapon value of '20'
and just say if there are high's allowed that day

Mike we have a few variations of the rules kicking around...can you give a quick overview of the changes you made.

Who changed my avatar, I really need to spend sometime on photoshop.

Must have been Beach, looks nice.

The following rules are great, only complaints to be heard could be over matching gear and guns, but that is usually solved by a quick internet search.

NIA-AMMUNITION RULES
-----------------------------
Ammunition rules for this event are meant to encourage equal footing for all participants. To do this, each type of magazine (real, low, mid, high) have a value attached to them. A limit is set for the event, and you are to determine how many magazines you can carry and of what type before you hit the limit.

Real Cap Mags (20-30) have a value of '1'
Low Cap Mags (60-80)have a value of '2'
Mid Cap Mags (90-150) have a value of '5'
High Cap Mags (150-400) have a value of '15'
Super High Cap (400-700) have a value of '20'
Box Mags (1000)-Must be on a support weapon value of '20'

For example, in a 20 point game, this means you may carry 10 low-caps. Alternatively, you may carry one high cap, and 1 mid-cap mag. You all know basic math so you may figure out how this works for you.

NIA-GEAR AND GUN RULES
--------------------------------
-Weapons must match the gear type-this is to keep the realism in play
---EXAMPLES---
Tiger Stripe-Armalite, MP5
team terror UZI, AK
Flectarn G36, AUG
ACU armalite, M249
(tops, Bottoms and hat that are a matching set of issue or close replica required-Boots can just be boots )
-LBV, Ciras, SAAV, chest rigs, Weesatch etc must either match or be OD, Tan, black.
-Teams will be broken up by specific gear requirements (example Digital, street clothes, miss matched, green based, desert based, where's Waldo shirts and glasses)



IDEAS
-Skirmish Games
GAME LEADER-whoever attends
GAME PLAY-spur of the moment short games
GAME LENGTH-none
GEAR-non required
AMMO LIMITS-none
TEAMS-
OTHER INFO-

Training Games
GAME LEADER-recognized trainer
GAME LEADER-specific games to work on specific skills and group tactics
GAME LENGTH-depending
GEAR-depending
AMMO LIMITS-depending
TEAMS-
OTHER INFO-

Operations
GAME LEADER-SPECIFIC PERSON-example Daes and Chinese
GAME PLAY-1 or 2 slow paced games that have specific objectives
GAME LENGTH-2-6 hours
GEAR-rules apply-Terror Team
AMMO LIMITS-points system
TEAMS-depending
OTHER INFO-


Simulation
GAME LEADER-Specific Person for each team
GAME PLAY-1 slower paced game
GAME LENGTH-minimum 6 hours
GEAR-gear rules apply
AMMO LIMITS-points system-NO HIGH CAPS
TEAMS-depending
OTHER INFO-

I'm not exactly sure what I changed to be honest. I just made things more clear for myself and I happen to write them down. The only real changes that I did was changed things from 'depending' and the real set in rules (the rules we state like "point system" "gear requirements" and "time limits"...etc) to state that they are mission specific and will be later announced in the briefing. I find it kind of pointless to make all these rules for ammo and gear if we hold milsims that change all the time. Keep the rules very generic and simple and then for each milsim change the little things (ie. ammo) as needed or as the game calls for...

And yah Horton I changed your avatar, kind of got bored tonight. I'll change it to something else when I have a bit more time...

Here is an example MilSim write-up:


Factions of Al-Qaeda have retaken the infamous Mountain Peak of Takur Ghar, a key strategic fortified observation post and now use it for running of their opium product to the drug runners, and eventually to our streets here in the west.

Canadian Forces, including JTF2, along with US Navy Seals, elements of the 10th Mountain Division, and the Afghani army all are working in unison to wipe out this base.

The Terrorist forces will have at their disposal Stingers, RPG7's and suicide bombers, that must be purchased through the profits of their drug running, from the Chinese. Al-Qaeda forces must keep their base free from being overun, by Heliborne assault, and also move their product to the safe zone where they will be paid and be able to purchase their weaponry.

The allied forces job is simple....destroy them.

There will be many inter game scenarios and wrenches thrown in to keep the game as even as possible.


Please let us know as soon as possible. If you have enjoyed our Trifecta games, you will love this weekend.

This will be a ammo controlled game...this is mil-sim.

All members of the Al-Qaeda forces will wear some form of Afghani headwear, be it a shemagh, head scarf, prayer cap or afghan wool cap, and can wear ANY camo NOT worn by the coalition forces with the exception of Woodland.....both Al-Qaeda, and Coalition Afghan Army may wear woodland....it adds to the fog of war.

Team Lists:

Coalition:
Canadian Regulars-Cadpat/Cadpat AR
JTF2-Cadpat/Cadpat AR
Navy Seals- Marpat/Desert Marpat
10th Mountain-ACU
Afghani Army-Woodland

Al-Qaeda/Taliban:
ANYthing BUT CADPAT/Marpat/ACU varients
Chinese Advisors....whatever chinese advisors wear...lol


This is what I would like to see happening. A story line and basic engine that will drive the game. The more one team works together, the better they will do, meaning if the coalition strikes out the drug runners, the opposing team does not field as much fire-power, vise verse, the terrorists work together and get their drugs through, they they will acquire more weapons to defend their base.

This simple system drives a game and with mid-game twists and turns (hostage rescue, heli-down, weapons cache, etc.) creates an environment that will keep players engaged and interested in the game for hours. Nothing more exciting then having the radio crack on during a fire fight to tell you that there are hostages in the group you are engaged with or that one of your allies helicopters just went down (both teams are told this and they both will figure out the best engagment).

If we are able to use Nic's land and map it out, then a simple command of pilot down in D5 will mean something.

I don't know, everything flip-flops too much around here, we really need to work towards a goal, be it getting more players, working on a field, or hosting a MilSim, something that we can accomplish and feel proud of.

-Doug

What are thoughts about the LBV, SAAV, CIRAS etc rules that it either has to be the same camo as your BDU or be a neutral colour like black, OD, tan...

Hortons Heros wrote:

What are thoughts about the LBV, SAAV, CIRAS etc rules that it either has to be the same camo as your BDU or be a neutral colour like black, OD, tan...

I somewhat agree with the rules because it is difficult to get matching chest gear with your style of camo, where in the heck would you get a flecktarn CIRAS unless it was custom made. Most of the vests available from retailers Krukspec, Redwolf, etc are usually ONLY available in OD, tan, and black, with the occassionaly woodland, 3 desert, or ACU thrown in.

Now to be fair, jungle on woodland is very hard to distinguish apart so why have the rules? What if my goal was to go for the special forces kit, look at Nic whenever he played, he deliberately had mixed camo (pants, jacket, and vests were completely different), but it looked good and worked very well (And he had full sets available if he so choosed).

I think that the important thing is to have gear, not so much the fact that it is 100% matching gear. Again, the contractor look.

Now, if we are having a special game, people in full, proper, kit will most likely have the most significant roles.

Here is an example of an Ops game's gear (one that would be fun to play):

Coalition:

Main Battleforce:
_Gear: ACU, 3/6 color desert, Desert/plain Marpat, near match vests
_Weapons: Armilites, "sniper" rifles

Contractors:
_Gear: A mix of any modern desert color camo, none matching vests (black allowed)
_Weapons: H&K anything, armilites

National Defense:
_Gear: Woodlands with load bearing chest rigs, maybe the occasion vest
_Weapons: AK anything, some old armilite variants


Terrorists:

Scorpion Masters:
_Gear: ANY old camo type, fleck, woodland, old desert, street, some load bearing rigs, little or no vests. Must have shemagh or lots of black mixed in the gear. Ie woodland pants, black longsleeve shirt, OD shemagh
_Weapons: AK, or any non H&K or modern railed (old armilites, old sigs, old G3's, etc.

Angry Civilians:
_Gear: shemagh, dark color street clothes, generally hidding face terror style
_Weapons: any non railed gun, uzi's, rifles, etc.


Looking at the huge mix of camo selection, I think it is hard to enforce people to have a completely matching BDU. Unless you are a grunt, most special forces (which is what some players want to play as) do not have matching gear, be that for what ever reason (it breaks up your outline pattern better).

-Doug

Looks good

I would agree but only if the organizers designate a Merc team, other wise I think they should look as close to a bunch of grunts as possible. If the teams are split by camo and someone is wearing a LBV that is the opositional forces pattern then recognition may become difficult.

If we make the rule to match then we can add exceptions later in the briefings when we have specific scenarios done up

Hortons Heros wrote:

I would agree but only if the organizers designate a Merc team, other wise I think they should look as close to a bunch of grunts as possible. If someone is wearing a LBV that is the opositional forces pattern then recognition may become difficult.

That is the whole point, real life is not red vs. blue. There is always going to be confusion, blurred objectives, friendly fire. But that is only for Sim games.

I really dislike gear rules, as has been previously discussed, not everyone is going to invest heavily in gear, after all, this is Airsoft, airsoft being a gun, if this was about gear, it would be MilSim.

Look at Yuurei, he invested in full SWAT black gear. That really was an investment but does not match anything that we are really currently doing. I do not want to look like a grunt. If I get gear that makes me look like special forces, then I will want to dress like special forces. If I dress as UBCS, then I hope that I will get a chance to play as UBCS. Saying that everyone should dress as a grunt really is not fair.

Creating blanket rules does not work. Saying that, to go to any of our games, unless other than specified, you have to look like a grunt seems kind of narrow. Does this mean that if Yuurei wants to play a game with us, he has to get new gear or get permission from the organizer?

All this rules that I brought forward were for MilSim, and only for MilSim or specialized ops. I do not see why all these rules have to blanket the entire gaming structure.

If this is the kit that I am aiming for:

and I was told that I could not come to the game because I did not look like a grunt, I would be very peeved...

But whatever, again I manage to fall into the rules and none of this affects me but to outside players, these rules are very restrictive.


-this is not real military gear, if I bought it, I would wear it because it looks cool