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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyWed 07 Mar 2007, 11:35 pm

Heh heh, ultra LARP MILSIM... Yeah, armilite midcaps should be loaded with the double - triple load, ie 60-90 shots. That means that a P90 should be loaded at 100-150 shots. As for armor piercing, most assualt rifles do a good job, unless someone is willing to wear a plate carrier with a heavy plate, we really do not have much for armor anyways (sans Gunman)... Plus, who really wants to figure out who is getting shot by who, it will devolve into the lowest depths of LARP where people argue about which effect cancels which effect.

Do a half load on the P90 and you should be set, that or get that armilite mag adapter Razz

Kind of fun to do ammo limits too, depending on the type of gun and mag, you can get more ammo if your real steel equivalent has more, that and get extended AK mags. SAW's usually get around 200 rounds per pouch so a 600 count airsoft load is not that far off.

I am sure there are more exceptions out there, post away so we can make a list.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyWed 07 Mar 2007, 11:42 pm

As long as I can go reload my mags when I respawn I don't really care. Smile

After all, when we respawn (game permitting) aren't we supposed to be a new soldier.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 12:48 am

What about AK high's? Aren't they like 400 rds of something? I would say that if your stuck with your hi-cap you'll have to deal with only a set amount (ie. 200 rnds) and have to deal with the rattling... Theoretically can't I wind and fire off a whole hi-cap at the same time? I really think that if we hold milsims or events that SAW are SAW, an armalite with a boxmag does not equal a SAW, nor a AK with hi-cap... seems to make sense that if we're trying to mimic a "realistic" fight then wouldn't it make sense not to use 400 rd hi-caps?

What about bb loaders and such?
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 1:08 am

Yeah, exactly Beach, I would really like to see the phasing out of high-caps for the "proper" games. Fun day stuff is fine, heck, I would love to get my box-mag out again, but as we all have played airsoft for awhile, it seems that more experience = more want for MilSim.

Now this is not fair to new players who do not have a ton of mags, but with Star Mags, Mag mags, and KA mags. Getting a set of cheap decent mags really is not all that expensive anymore. A set of five 68 round mags is plenty for gaming (makes you play right, no bullet hose) and you can get a set of metal ones for less than $100 and plastic ones for half that.

As for BB loaders, I don't know... Most look like pistol mags, armilite mags, distress beacons, etc. which is great. But how is that much different that loading from a bag, to the loader in the field anyways... I guess the best way for all of this is to play test it and see what works.

-Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 1:09 am

twsmith wrote:
As long as I can go reload my mags when I respawn I don't really care. Smile

After all, when we respawn (game permitting) aren't we supposed to be a new soldier.

Yeah, you are bang on, respawn back at base, refill, eat, etc. If you get medic'd in the field, no reload but if you are kill rag'd and back to base, then yeah, you are good to go.

-Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 1:19 am

I would also think that those attending milsims aren't exactly noobs, hopefully translating in they don't just have a gun, a hi-cap and some skate shoes...
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 1:29 am

beach_boy wrote:
I would also think that those attending milsims aren't exactly noobs, hopefully translating in they don't just have a gun, a hi-cap and some skate shoes...

lol, you can never be too sure but yeah...
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 1:53 pm

what about wind rules with high caps? 600+bbs in an AK high and you only have to wind twice means a huge advantage. If we only allow 3-7 winds then they will shoot, run dry, wind 3-7 times again and continue with that. May take even more time than a mag change.

I have 6 lows for my AUG and 1 AK high carries the same or more BBs.

The 3x real steal rule sounds good. 1 bullet=3 BBs.

I think you should be able to carry BB's in the field to reload. Nic was telling me that he had to load his own mags in the military, they would just throw a bag of bullets and mags at him. Limiting how much you can hold in a vest or pocket but not how much if they carry the ammo in a backpack. Gives someone else the role of being the mobile ammo dump on the field.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 2:24 pm

Bah, I just hate high-caps, they really do take the fun out of everything. Never having to swap mags for a whole game seems kind of boring and not realistic. Wind rules would also mean a large % of dry fire, you never know quite when you are going to run out. If you play with all the same mags, then you kind of know your timing. Not that I would want to make it a members rules, or an ops rule, but for a sim, non-winding mags should be a requirement. Also, something that can be looked at, alot of box mags require you to provide your own hi-cap, this means that a large mid-cap can be put in place and require no winding, mind you, that is heck expensive just to get a few 100 more rounds off...

I agree Dave, as teams are created and roles are assigned, giving someone the role of being the mobile ammo dump is great. Having dedicated roles as medic, support gunner, marksman, meat shield, and donkey would be fun, entertaining, and give everyone a role to be proud of.

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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 4:17 pm

I agree with Doug and Dave. Having dedicated roles would be a really cool aspect to the game. I can see it saving people from running and gunning and forcing more strategic play in order not to lose crucial members of any given team.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 4:17 pm

How would you dry fire any more than having low caps? When you are dry you are dry, reaction to the change in sound doesn't have much to do with it being a spring feed mag or a winding mag.

What if you have to take you mag out to wind it? you would be doing the same motion as changing a mag and taking the time as well.

I agree that high caps take away from the game but we can try and facilitate their use if someone has full gear but not enough mags.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 5:10 pm

High caps dry fire more, like I said, it is all timing. Highcaps also suddenly unwind leaving you in a mess of firing. I personally find that I have less dry fire with lows than winders, simply because I am able to pay attention to the sounds and timing better, I am not second guessing when I am running out nor will the mag keep un-winding all the time. If you are only partly winding, you will have alot more unwinding and panic. With my G36 and the silenced internals, I have a hard time hearing the difference, that is why some players put different colored BB's for the last few shots.

Also, everytime you take your high cap out you are loosing a few BB's (due to spring tension), I usually loose about 4. Over the course of a day, that really adds up.

As I stated earlier, everything except sim I don't have a problem with highcaps. In Sim, it is the rattling sound, the un-wind sound, and the bad loads that make them totally unrealistic. Just about every Milsim event has rules regarding hi-caps, examples:

-----------------------------------------


AMMUNITION RULES

Ammunition rules for this event are meant to encourage equal footing for all participants. To do this, each type of magazine (real, low, mid, high) have a value attached to them. A limit is set for the event, and you are to determine how many magazines you can carry and of what type before you hit the limit.

Real Cap (Star Mags) have a value of '1'
Low Cap Mags have a value of '2'
Mid Cap Mags have a value of '5'
High Cap Mags have a value of '15'

The limit for most event will be '20' unless stated otherwise on game day.

This means you may carry 20 Star mags, or 10 standards. Alternatively. You may carry one high cap, and 1 mid cap mag. You all know basic math so you may figure out how this works for you.

- I really like this one

-----------------------------------------


Règlement de capacités :

Armes régulieres (primaire) : 300 bbs maximum. Peut être distribué au choix du joueur, autant qu’il respecte la limite accordée. (Locaps, Hicaps, midcaps…). Le total ne doit pas dépasser 300bbs.

Light Machine Guns (LMGs) : 1000 bbs. Ne peuvent être utilisées qu’avec des Cmags, Drum Mags ou BoxMags. Aucun Hicaps ne sera accordé.

-Meh, simple enough, whatever mags, just limited to the count

-----------------------------------------

Limite de munition

- Lowcaps seulement
- 1 hicap max.


-1 hi-cap allowed, rest must be lows. Simple again.

-----------------------------------------


Kelowna:
We’re being fairly lenient for ammo limits and all players must adhere to them.
· No more than two AK high caps (1200 rounds)
· 4 or less low caps can be accompanied by one high cap
· No high cap, unlimited low caps


-Again, hi-caps are capped despite the opinion that they are being lenient.

-----------------------------------------

We should follow example and carefully balance our ammo amount and allowed hi-caps. It seems that most Milsims really frown on hi's and I tend to agree.

For any other game, I really don't mind hi-caps, but MilSim is special and should be treated with respect due to the mystical powers that it possesses.

On a flip note, here is something we should also watch out for:
I honestly feel that the medic rules create an enviroment that is less milsim freindly than any amount of ammo could ever do. The problem with the medic rule is that you have people who aren't afriad to die so they use tactics that aren't very "milsim". I don't think that an ammo limit does much to make the game more playable. Anyways just my opinions but its something you may want to consider. 10 guys with almost unlimited respawn ability will do more damage even if they have ammo limits then 10 guys who have unlimited ammo but "fear" for their lives.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 7:38 pm

Horton I can see where your coming from, from a business point of view, kind of sucks if someone wants to rent your gun for a sim but can't because of a hi-cap rule that we have slapped on. We can all speak of our own experiences of hi-cap use (We all can remember GM's P90 hi-cap of doom) many with a negative view, especially if it is during a milsim, so by looking at it from your view it is very understandable, and I believe that yes we should accommodate to noobs or to out of towners who may not have been able to bring their own gun...

From your guys' last posts, here are some of my observations that I see slightly high percentages of problems:

Winding rule: Especially for noobs the temptation to wind a few more times is a pretty tasty one, I know it runs through everyone's mind since it would be a lie if I told you that I have never thought about something like that. It takes what is already a honest game and makes things even harder and more tempting to 'bend' the rules. It is puttting too much trust on that one person.

No bb's or loaders in the field: Unless you have a one of a kind gun with funny mags then it shouldn't be that hard to find and borrow a mag or two from a person. If the person (aka. Simon) only has 2 AK low caps, the chances that he'll have any chances in a fight are slim to none that he'll actually be able to get the guy, especially if he's alone for some reason. The being able to carry bb's or something can help our low-cap friends. BB caches and other places somewhere in the field really help too.

Overall, aside from speaking against the use for hi-caps, it is important that we still try to accomidate to the new and the old players. I think if Horton can doesn't want to shell out the money for AK lows or something then that is fine. We can make a rules all we want but that doesn't mean that they will always be followed. For example, my first SSM game, I knew better and I even thought and had the movement visualized in my head, but regardless I still blind fired. It was completely by accident and I know I knew better and I felt like crap afterwards and called myself out but the fact is that I still did it. The rule is there but it doesn't mean it will always be followed or called.

The use of Low or Mid-caps remove the chances and take the some responsibility and trust issues away and puts everyone on the same level for mag feeding... decide what you guys want, just don't make stupid rules like the PDW did last year, and have a one battery all day rule...
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 8:00 pm

These are taken off other Clubs Milsim rules:

JOC:
Quote :
Rifleman:
The general rule will be a player may carry an unlimited number of low cap magazines.
Mid Caps will be limited to three.
A single high cap will be allowed. Extreme high capacity high caps such as the AK high cap (600) or some of the High end M16 series high caps (550) will not be allowed

EAR:
Quote :
Ammo limit will be 400 rounds however you choose to carry it, or unlimited Standard magazines. Mid caps count as high cap magazines for this application. Squad weapons will be limited to 2000 rounds
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 9:33 pm

I personally like the:

AMMUNITION RULES

Ammunition rules for this event are meant to encourage equal footing for all participants. To do this, each type of magazine (real, low, mid, high) have a value attached to them. A limit is set for the event, and you are to determine how many magazines you can carry and of what type before you hit the limit.

Real Cap (Star Mags) have a value of '1'
Low Cap Mags have a value of '2'
Mid Cap Mags have a value of '5'
High Cap Mags have a value of '15'

The limit for most event will be '20' unless stated otherwise on game day.

This means you may carry 20 Star mags, or 10 standards. Alternatively. You may carry one high cap, and 1 mid cap mag. You all know basic math so you may figure out how this works for you.


It allows people to carry any type of magazine while keeping things even. Hi-caps fine, just you ain't going to be having tons of them. If you are insane enough to play with star mags, then yeah, you can use 20 of them, or a hi and 5, or 5 low and 10 real, etc. etc... Admittedly I would want to expand on the definitions of what is real, low, mid, high, and box. My mids are 2x that of a low, thus 2.5x the cost due to ease, fair. A hi is anywhere from 5x to 15x a low, AK being the highest, should examine that a wee bit.

The alternative is allow any mag still but only have limits of ammo allowed out there but that is kind of weak.

I agree Beach, a reloading cache or base is perfect for gaming. If you run out, then you have to get back to base with your side arm, or at least ration what you have left to fight your way back.

Though I doubt we will ever phase out hi-caps, we can at least even out the field for those who are striving for realsim.

Of course, nobody has still said anything on box-mags... Non-SAW box mags especially.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 9:37 pm

=Daes= wrote:

For any other game, I really don't mind hi-caps, but MilSim is special and should be treated with respect due to the mystical powers that it possesses.

Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 9:53 pm

Agreed, I think that this talk about hi-caps and such is a good, but a does this solve anything? It gives us a good idea of what we all think is fair, but Ammo limits all depend on the simulation. If we're going for a WWII or Vietnam milsim our ammo limits will be much different than a milsim placed in today's era...
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 10:02 pm

beach_boy wrote:
Agreed, I think that this talk about hi-caps and such is a good, but a does this solve anything? It gives us a good idea of what we all think is fair, but Ammo limits all depend on the simulation. If we're going for a WWII or Vietnam milsim our ammo limits will be much different than a milsim placed in today's era...

Point. That is why some people do not care so much the mag but the ammo limit, a realistic carry of said ammo to weight ratio. Mind you, I really doubt that any Milsim that we are doing is going to be historical. Tommy is gone Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 10:18 pm

=Daes= wrote:
I really doubt that any Milsim that we are doing is going to be historical.

Maybe we should start
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 10:22 pm

chinese_gunman wrote:
=Daes= wrote:
I really doubt that any Milsim that we are doing is going to be historical.

Maybe we should start

If we are going historical, most of us have the wrong guns/gear for anything prior to the gulf war. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 10:29 pm

but we can use the scenerio even though we may not have the gear (ie no body armour, ammo restrictions)...we can be semi-historical...thus changing up our game play... i dunno..just a thought


for milsims...if we ever have one... i think we should be more strict on military wear... this means...current issue uniforms...(sorry..no more woodlands)...head wear... vests...boots.....and the propper weapon to go with ur uniform (nothing stupid like an uzi with cadpat)
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 10:37 pm

Woodland is still used by some units, and some countries for that matter. (Iraqi defense force I believe.)
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 10:41 pm

sorry...i meant western armies. I don't know of anyone who wanted to pretend to be an Iraqi national guard...but whatever floats ur boat

i also believe hezbollah wears woodlands... as i recall, so does Osama Bin Laden

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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 10:44 pm

Notice I also said "units", meaning US army units. And I forgot to mention PMCs, who also use woodland quite a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 2 EmptyThu 08 Mar 2007, 10:48 pm

Jackboot wrote:
Woodland is still used by some units, and some countries for that matter. (Iraqi defense force I believe.)

I watch a lot of the Military channel, and I've seen a lot of recent shows with recruits still using Woodland. Smile

According to wikipedia:

The process of replacing the Army's current BDU "woodland" pattern (used since 1981) with the ACU was to begin in April 2005; however, the process actually began two months earlier through the Rapid Fielding Initiative and is scheduled to be completed by December 2007. Currently, multiple camouflage patterns and caps are in use at Army posts.
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N.I.A.- Northern Interior Airsoft :: The Club :: Chinese Parliament-
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