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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 12:28 am

That Highlands stuff looks good, but I don't think it would be very effective come fall in some areas. Not to mention when the pine beetle takes out what coniferous forest you have left around PG. You're going to need something with a lot more brown and red. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 12:32 am

beach_boy wrote:
Here's what I gather, gear/gun should be the same as ammo limits. Gear/gun should depend on the milsim. Ie. Again... Vietnam I'm pretty sure if we come busting out with a G36 and cadpat that's a little unrealistic.

Just like ammo, guns and gear should be mission specific. Many milsims out there require each team to be matching or atleast color matching at best. They may go as far as only certain guns can be on certain teams. I was reading up on either JOC or EAR forums that they are holding a milsim along these properties (gear & gun match team)

If we're going Vietnam milsim then almost nobody would meet the requirements of guns or gear. I don't think they even had Woodlands until after they pulled out. M4's didn't exist and I'm pretty sure that RIS/RAS gear was non-existant so that rules out a pile of armalovers. I'm all for milsim, but we have to be flexible or we're not going to have anyone to play with.

We are not re-enactors, we are recreational airsoft players with delusions of grandeur. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 12:45 am

This was taken off of the MAA site, from their rules for their Operation Keystone strike:

Quote :
CAMO RULES
--------------------------------
- To attain uniform distinguishable teams, and increased realism, complete BDU sets of the specified types are mandatory to register. (Tops AND Bottoms, same pattern.)

- Camo on gear is allowed to be mixed/matched.

- Forces will be split based upon BDU patterns.
- Team Red will have CADPAT, and OD.
- Team Blue will have US Woodland, MARPAT, Multicam, and DPM

- If you do not possess one of these patterns, at least 1 pattern on each team is cheap and easy to find on eBay.

- Changing of uniform is allowed during the game PENDING OPERATIONAL APPROVAL. (on orders only) It is otherwise PROHIBITED!

And I agree Wayne that we aren't re-enactors, I was purelying using it as an example because it was the easiest example I could think of (ie. OD BDU's, M16's... etc.)
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 12:49 am

Yet again from Keystone:

Quote :
AMMO LIMITS (AEG'S)
--------------------------------
- A player may carry AS MANY LOW-CAPS HE/SHE WISHES into the game. This is to emulate a real situation in which the combatant is allowed to take as much ammo he/she feels is necessary without compromising his/her effectiveness on the field.

- Some people will not be able to field the number of low-caps necessary to effectively fight, therefore high-caps will be allowed. However, only a maximum of 1 high cap may be taken per player, with no other magazines. On average 1 high cap = 5 standard.

- In the case of G&P 'mid-caps' the rule is similar to the high-caps. Only Mid-caps may be used, and only a maximum of three may be carried. Three m16 mid caps is 390 rounds, 90 more than the high-cap, this makes up for reload time.

- VN(190) and Spetznaz(250) reservoir magazines are still considered High-Cap magazines.

- AK (600 round), G3 (500 round), G36 (470 round), or any other High-Cap magazines holding more than 350 rounds are not allowed. These magazines are restricted because of the ability to sustain fire for long periods of time without reload above and beyond the standard ~300 round high-caps. These put low caps at an even greater disadvantage, and this ability is usually an attribute of LMG's, not Assault Rifles.

I am not posting these saying we need to copy them, but rather to give us all ideas of what other clubs' milsim rules are...
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 12:56 am

Looking for peoples personal ideas for these rules as well as taking from other clubs. We are making these for us to use so lets see some specific rules that you guys think would work.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:01 am

beach_boy wrote:
This was taken off of the MAA site, from their rules for their Operation Keystone strike:

Quote :
CAMO RULES
--------------------------------
- To attain uniform distinguishable teams, and increased realism, complete BDU sets of the specified types are mandatory to register. (Tops AND Bottoms, same pattern.)

- Camo on gear is allowed to be mixed/matched.

- Forces will be split based upon BDU patterns.
- Team Red will have CADPAT, and OD.
- Team Blue will have US Woodland, MARPAT, Multicam, and DPM

- If you do not possess one of these patterns, at least 1 pattern on each team is cheap and easy to find on eBay.

- Changing of uniform is allowed during the game PENDING OPERATIONAL APPROVAL. (on orders only) It is otherwise PROHIBITED!

And I agree Wayne that we aren't re-enactors, I was purelying using it as an example because it was the easiest example I could think of (ie. OD BDU's, M16's... etc.)

I like their camo rules. Pretty straightforward and easy to meet the requirements. One of the main reasons that I've stuck with DPM is that not many people use it so I can easily switch between sides to balance the teams.

What happens with snipers using ghillie suits? I suspect they are at an increased risk of FF regardless of what camo they wear.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:03 am

I have enough VN mags to choke a cow but even my M16A2 is considered too new (realistically, mind you most viet milsim lets that past).

I think we have to remember that all of this is for MilSim, we have 3 game types that will be played quite a bit more often that doesn't have any crazy gun or gear rules (or at least not as serious).

I think the important thing right now is that we get members geared up, that means a themed BDU (be it a contractor look, a grunt look, or what ever, doesn't have to match perfectly, OD CIRAS on ACU is fine) and a working gun (most definately an AEG or at the min a gas/spring sniper).

After that, we can get the members looking at buying more mags, other sets of gear, etc. for when we host or trip to large events.

I think that we need at least a few players in our club to get some proper Airsoft MilSim experience if we are to host our own. Once we experience what others are doing, we can take that back and perfect upon it.

I would really love to see everyone playing in real gear with real mags but I guess that is a pipe dream where we are still trying to get members to even to join into the club. Thankfully we have the wonderful and hardcore support of MIA to flush out our numbers. I really believe that we are capable of hosting a really good MilSim and maintain a professional image.

Gunman, have you seen any good deals on gear? Maybe if we can compile a list of retailers that sell decently priced and quality gear more people would take that investment.

For example, I <3 Redwolf, they always have cool stuff like this going for $45:
Game Style/Type - Page 4 MILS-CB-1150WL-L
Game Style/Type - Page 4 MILS-CB-1150DC-L
http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/ProductDetail?prodID=19793

Game Style/Type - Page 4 PTR-CBG-CPUNF-L
$55

Even weird stuff:
Game Style/Type - Page 4 MIL-URBCAM-L

Anyone up for doing a Redwolf group order?

-Doug


Last edited by on Fri 09 Mar 2007, 1:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:06 am

Rules that I think would work? An adaption of these ones:


CAMO RULES
--------------------------------
- To attain uniform distinguishable teams, and increased realism, complete BDU sets of the specified types are mandatory to register. (Tops AND Bottoms, same pattern.)

- Camo on gear is allowed to be mixed/matched.

- Forces will be split based upon BDU patterns.
- Team Red will have CADPAT, and OD. DPM (they commonwealth)
- Team Blue will have US Woodland, MARPAT, Multicam

- If you do not possess one of these patterns, at least 1 pattern on each team is cheap and easy to find on eBay.

- Changing of uniform is allowed during the game PENDING OPERATIONAL APPROVAL. (on orders only) It is otherwise PROHIBITED!


AMMUNITION RULES
-----------------------------
Ammunition rules for this event are meant to encourage equal footing for all participants. To do this, each type of magazine (real, low, mid, high) have a value attached to them. A limit is set for the event, and you are to determine how many magazines you can carry and of what type before you hit the limit.

Real Cap (Star Mags) have a value of '1'
Low Cap Mags have a value of '2'
Mid Cap Mags have a value of '5'
High Cap Mags have a value of '15'

The limit for most event will be '20' unless stated otherwise on game day.

This means you may carry 20 Star mags, or 10 standards. Alternatively. You may carry one high cap, and 1 mid cap mag. You all know basic math so you may figure out how this works for you.


-Doug


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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:07 am

Actually from what Mike has posted, I think I agree with MAA's rules for ammo limits as well. They seem reasonable and back up their decisions with valid arguments. My only issue would be my P90 once again as 3 locaps would not cut it in a firefight! Smile As long as I can reload my mags with bb loaders between firefights or when I respawn it's a non-issue.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:13 am

Again, what is the definition of a low cap? Real load (Star) or TM load (2x'ish real)?

I prefer the point system because it doesn't penalize people with other mags quite as bad. With a 20 point system, you can have a high-cap, and a mid cap, or a high-cap, 2 low, 1 real.

The other system only gives one hi-mag, period. And it does not scale. Point systems can vary and still work out mathematically. 10 points easy to adapt, 30 points, 25 points, 20 points, all work out balanced for most of the players.

-Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:15 am

I think Horton mentioned it in one of our briefings before, now correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was: green-based BDU's (Cadpat, British DPM, Woodland) are on a team, and sand color (six-color or three, choc-chip), etc... I think you get the idea

Although having the whole team (ie. Team China) all decked out in Cadpat was highly recommended, it was not mandatory.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:18 am

=Daes= wrote:

Even weird stuff:
Game Style/Type - Page 4 MIL-URBCAM-L

-Doug

actually...this pattern is a USMC urban bdu prototype...evidently it never stuck
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:24 am

My only problem with that is that the sand-colored team is at a very distinct disadvantage unless we happen to be playing in that massive PG desert area. Smile

Oh and I like Doug's point system for mags. It makes it easy to quickly change up the rules by adjusting the point level and helps level the playing field between hicaps and locaps. You could even make it more realistic by setting a very low point limit. We'd have to define hicaps better though because some hicaps are way more of an advantage than others ie. P90's 220 bb's vs a AK's 600 bb's. And yet they both count as 15 points?

beach_boy wrote:
I think Horton mentioned it in one of our briefings before, now correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was: green-based BDU's (Cadpat, British DPM, Woodland) are on a team, and sand color (six-color or three, choc-chip), etc... I think you get the idea

Although having the whole team (ie. Team China) all decked out in Cadpat was highly recommended, it was not mandatory.


Last edited by on Fri 09 Mar 2007, 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:26 am

Heh heh, I got some new PG camo:


Game Style/Type - Page 4 1pinebeetleqt5

Pine Beetle Red


-Doug (boy that is a bad shop)
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:31 am

=Daes= wrote:
Heh heh, I got some new PG camo:


Game Style/Type - Page 4 1pinebeetleqt5

Pine Beetle Red


-Doug (boy that is a bad shop)

Looks more like pink to me. Do you have a purse... er mag pouch to match! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:33 am

twsmith wrote:

Looks more like pink to me. Do you have a purse... er mag pouch to match! Smile

Oh you silly, of course I do Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 2:14 am

u sicken me
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 9:30 am

Again, my example was poor, I think it was split like Woodland, Cadpat, DPM, OD all on one team vs flecktarn, multicam, marpat and a few others... the sand color team was all I could think of quickly. The idea was to have to distinct teams, to split teams up by camo base colors. If we want to accommodate those on a budget then this works great, with that in mind we can encourage them to get matching gear, or something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 11:40 am

digital VS non-digital
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:18 pm

NIA-AMMUNITION RULES
-----------------------------
Ammunition rules for this event are meant to encourage equal footing for all participants. To do this, each type of magazine (real, low, mid, high) have a value attached to them. A limit is set for the event, and you are to determine how many magazines you can carry and of what type before you hit the limit.

Real Cap Mags (20-30) have a value of '1'
Low Cap Mags (60-80)have a value of '2'
Mid Cap Mags (90-150) have a value of '5'
High Cap Mags (150-400) have a value of '15'
Super High Cap (400-700) have a value of '20'
Box Mags (1000)-Must be on a support weapon value of '20'

For example, in a 20 point game,this means you may carry 10 standards. Alternatively, you may carry one high cap, and 1 mid cap mag. You all know basic math so you may figure out how this works for you.

NIA-GEAR AND GUN RULES
--------------------------------
-Weapons must match the gear type-this is to keep the realism in play
---EXAMPLES---
Tiger Stripe-Armalite, MP5
team terror UZI, AK
Flectarn G36, AUG
ACU armalite, M249
(tops, Bottoms and hat that are a matching set of issue or close replica required-Boots can just be boots )
-LBV, Ciras, SAAV, chest rigs, Weesatch etc must either match or be OD, Tan, black.
-Teams will be broken up by specific gear requirements (example Digital, street clothes, miss matched, green based, desert based, where's Waldo shirts and glasses)



IDEAS
-Skirmish Games
GAME LEADER-whoever attends
GAME PLAY-spur of the moment short games
GAME LENGTH-none
GEAR-non required
AMMO LIMITS-none
TEAMS-
OTHER INFO-

Training Games
GAME LEADER-recognized trainer
GAME LEADER-specific games to work on specific skills and group tactics
GAME LENGTH-depending
GEAR-depending
AMMO LIMITS-depending
TEAMS-
OTHER INFO-

Operations
GAME LEADER-SPECIFIC PERSON-example Daes and Chinese
GAME PLAY-1 or 2 slow paced games that have specific objectives
GAME LENGTH-2-6 hours
GEAR-rules apply-Terror Team
AMMO LIMITS-points system
TEAMS-depending
OTHER INFO-


Simulation
GAME LEADER-Specific Person for each team
GAME PLAY-1 slower paced game
GAME LENGTH-minimum 6 hours
GEAR-gear rules apply
AMMO LIMITS-points system-NO HIGH CAPS
TEAMS-depending
OTHER INFO-


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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:20 pm

Meh, make it like the real wars where friendly fire is always an issue. Do it by realistic country divisions, where two different countries will be sharing similar patterns. It will be an excellent excerise in recognizing your teams and learning how to do proper communicaiton (radios) and controling your fire.

When it comes down to it, a ghillie suit will always look like a ghillie suit no matter the team so why try to do huge divisions, mix it up, let camo types per team change every other game.

On that note, lets go back and look at teams. That is a great way to get unified camo and unified mags. If you have for example Team China (Cadpat) versus Team Marines (Woodland) then maybe camo distinctions would work. But having only two divisions seems silly considering some players here have 5+ different sets of camo.

I say, camo division is silly for most normal games. In MilSim, it gets really tricky to divide out the camo properly, cause if 20 Marpat show up and 4Cadpat, 4flecktarn, then the teams will have to both have Marpat to be equal.

Like MAA said, there are certain gear types that are cheap, ie OD, Woodland that you can get on ebay for nothing. Though basically few modern forces use OD anymore, it is relatively effective still and anyone can get it dirt cheap from a surplus store (Alberta side especially).

-Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:21 pm

I will edit this message too, I like where that list is going, looks well thought out.

-Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:34 pm

don't change it until that message disapears. or just repost it and BOLD the areas that you have changed.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:42 pm

Oh, I mean my personal message, not yours, I mean I like where yours is going and I will edit mine for comments on it! Geez, that would have gotten messy if we both were saving it at different times Razz

-Doug
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PostSubject: Re: Game Style/Type   Game Style/Type - Page 4 EmptyFri 09 Mar 2007, 1:44 pm

Should be:

High Cap Mags (150-400) have a value of '15'
Super High Cap (400-700) have a value of '20'

Most armilite hi's are 400'ish.
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